So far in our Oi, Ref! series on the EU referendum, we've written a personal guide to the upcoming vote on June 23rd, as well as a pros and cons to both sides. Most recently, we we asked an expert on whether our politicians are potentially psychopathic.
More recently, I had a little chat with James McGrory, the Chief Campaign Spokesman for Britain Stronger In Europe, who gave me the DL on every little thing you might be worrying about.
Hi James. Tell us a little bit about how you got involved with the work.
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I'm the Chief campaign spokesman for Britain Stronger In Europe. We're not yet the official campaign on the remain side of the argument in the European referendum, but we've handed our application in to the electoral commission - and given that we're the only horse in the race, we're very confident of winning.
I joined the campaign last year because I'm passionate about Britain staying in Europe. I've been in politics for a little while; I worked with the Lib Dems for about ten years before I had this job. That came to an end when the coalition government did.
Would you be able to explain in a sentence why Britain is better in the EU?
In a sentence: Britain is safer, stronger and better off in the EU than we would be out on our own.
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From a layman's perspective, it seems to be all about jobs. It's said that 3 million positions rely on our being in the EU.
Yeah. The way I would put it is that there's study after study showing there're about 3 million - some would put it as high as 4 million - jobs that are linked to our membership in the EU, and the reasons for that are obvious.
There are companies in Britain that make things that can be sold right across Europe. You can sell something to someone in Hungary, the Czech Republic, France or Germany just as easily as you could sell it to someone in Wales, Cornwall or Norfolk. That's the beauty of being in the EU's single market.
Leaving the EU is gonna be bad news for businesses, it's gonna hit them hard. It's gonna make it harder to export things; it means they're gonna get less business from abroad, less investment in Europe, and that will have a knock on effect on jobs. I'm not saying all those jobs will be lost but expert after expert has said that they will be put at risk and indeed I'd say don't listen to me listen to the lead campaigners themselves.
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When Boris Johnson was asked that question he said jobs might be lost. The director of the lead campaign - a gentlemen called Dominic Cummings - said jobs would be lost in some sectors. There are some sectors that are particularly vulnerable in agriculture, manufacturing - those kind of industries.
So you think trade's completely dependent on the EU? We couldn't just start trading with different countries in different continents?
Yeah, we can. You're absolutely right, of course we can, and already do. We trade with the EU but we also trade with the rest of the world. But the bottom line about this is that about half of our trade in goods is with the EU. What is true, what the leave campaign says is that our trade with the rest of the world is going up; with those big emerging economies like India, and China and Brazil, it's on the up and that is absolutely true. But they're already on the up; we're already boosting our trade with them while we're in the EU. And I would say it's nothing short of madness to turn your back on your biggest market to seek better, mythical trade elsewhere. You can do both and we do do both. I don't think it follows as an argument.
A lot of people on the leave campaign reference countries like Norway and Switzerland who are sound in terms of the economy and security. Do you think Britain can be compared to them, or is it a different kettle of fish?
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Look, I always say I'd rather be Britain than any other country. I'd certainly rather be Britain than Norway or Switzerland. If the leave campaign wants to pick one of those models, we'll have a debate on that, but they sort of say 'Oh, well look at Norway and Switzerland' and then I point out the following things to them: Norway and Switzerland both accept free movement of people, which the leave campaign's got a big problem with, and say they can bring to an end. Norway and Switzerland both pay into the EU budget. Norway is a particularly interesting case because we're the ninth highest contributor to the EU per head, and they're the tenth. And they have to accept EU regulations, cause they wanna trade in the single market.
Norway is known as - it's a bit dated this phrase now - but it's known as the 'fax democracy', because they sit there and have to accept and implement all the EU regulations. The leave campaign are trying to take the British people for mugs and con them by saying we should be like Norway or Switzerland, but then they claim they'll end free movement, end budget contributions and won't have to accept EU regulations. Well, hold on a minute. That's not true of Norway and Switzerland - so you're trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. It's absolute nonsense.
Didn't we pay about £13billion into the EU last year?
That is what we pay in less than rebate, which is the money we get back. But then we also get back directly a load of other money.
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We got £4.5billion out of it worth in spending.
Yeah, that's absolutely right. It works out at about 30p per person per day, so what's that? Slightly less than one stick of a Twix, per person. It works out as about £300 per household per year and the estimates of what we get back in total, not just by EU spending but by the CBI and others is about £3000 per household, so it's a 10/1 return on our investments.
Yes, we have to pay a fee to be a member of this club, but in return what we get is more jobs, more trade, more investment, lower prices in the shops, better security, a greater standing in the world, ability to tackle climate change. But what translates in terms of what I'm sure your readers are interested in is 'what does it mean to me and my family?' And as I say, credible economic studies have said that we get a return on that payment you rightly said we make at about 10/1. You ask anyone who likes to go to the bookies, that's a good return in investment.
Do you think the biggest issue is immigration and border control? For some parties like UKIP, anti-immigration is a USP.
I would say the biggest issue at stake in this referendum is the economy. That's what's gonna make a difference to every one of your readers and their families - what their pay pack is. But that isn't to say that immigration isn't a significant issue in this country right now. If you've gone campaigning at all in politics, you'll find how often it comes up on the doorstep. What I'd say is that are there some hardcore UKIP supporters who are gonna vote out come what may because they just don't like immigration.
British people are a pretty fair minded lot. We think if people come over here, if they work hard and they pay their taxes, and contribute to our society, work in public services, then we don't mind that. As a country we've always been open minded to that 'cause it benefits us. What people do have a problem with is those that come over here and take the piss. Those that don't play by the rules, and that's not on.
Are there any studies showing one claim disproving the other, regarding contributors and scroungers?
There are a lot of studies that show immigrants make an immense economic contribution to this country, which is not surprising. Most of them that come are of working age. I'm sure you and your readers meet lots of people from the EU who work in your office, or local hospital, or are driving the bus. It's really quite a small proportion of people who are coming over here to milk the benefits system, but that doesn't mean it's not important.
The benefits system is something we are rightly proud of in this country, and it's there to be a safety net to protect people who really need it, so when people are abusing it that needs to be cracked down on even when it's a relatively small number of people.
How do you crack down on it?
David Cameron has got the ability now to say that people can't claim benefits until they've paid into the system. I think that's the right thing to do. That will only kick in if we vote to stay in Europe. There's a lag effect with these things. They do take a little bit of time to work through the system, but I'd say look at that and give it a chance to see how it works 'cause I think that's the kinda thing that people wanna see. I don't think people want hard-working taxpayers to be unwelcome in Britain, but they think people who take the piss shouldn't be allowed to, so I think there has to be a balance.
What about all the talk of laws being dictated in Brussels?
I mean, that I just fundamentally disagree with. Britain is one of the big players in Europe. Always has been, always will be. The size of our economy and the history of our country guarantees that. At the top of the table it's really us, France and Germany.
Look at the history of Europe in recent years, the single market was driven by Britain, not least by one Margaret Thatcher, who a lot of people on the leave side eulogise about as being a hero. People might not like this, but Britain and Tony Blair were absolutely critical in seeing the EU expand into central and eastern Europe. These are countries that, even in my time, were under the oppressive yolk of communism and the Soviet Union. I argue getting rid of that was a huge step forward. Britain was instrumental in all of those things.
We deliver on interests all the time in Europe and it's not surprising 'cause we're a big country with a major negotiating seat at the table. The leave campaign says that we're gonna leave the EU but not suffer any of the downsides. That they're going to hand us a better deal than France and Germany. It's ludicrous. If you can find me one who's done any negotiating in Europe who can credibly say 'yes, this is a plausible deal' I will be amazed but there just aren't any. It's a complete fiction.
Wouldn't it be better if our government were wholly responsible for their shortcomings?
Well, I just don't subscribe to that argument. This argument about sovereignty, if you follow it to its logical conclusion, the most sovereign country in the world is North Korea. They don't participate in anything else with other countries. We group together with other countries. We do it at the UN. We do it with conventions like when we sign up to the International Convention against Torture or certain arms dealing. When we joined NATO. We do it all the time. We've done it throughout our history. And it makes us stronger. We have more influence when we come together and act as one.
I worked in a government at a senior level and the decisions we took were our decisions, whether it was on tax, spending, health, schools, public transport. I don't remember once being told that I couldn't do something because of the EU. It is, to coin a phrase, a load of bollocks.
So you think Britain would be irrelevant if it left?
No, I'd never say something like that. Britain is a great country, we will do well wherever we are in the world. It's about how we can be the best we can be. Our allies are serious countries. They're our friends, they're our neighbours. It's not something I agree with.
We've been doing polls on all our EU stuff so far. The last one, which was about the pros and cons of both sides, showed a 45% on remain, 40% on leave and 15% unsure. Do you think people on the leave side will get cold feet last minute?
I think that's not too dissimilar from what most polls are saying. That there's perhaps a small lead for us but still a substantial group of people who say they don't know, and that's understandable. We're three months off from the referendum and there's still a big debate to come. I think we'll vote to stay in because we have the stronger argument. I think when people think about the hard facts, they'll vote no.
It's such a big question for young people, too.
With young people, they really the enjoy the freedom to live, work and study anywhere they like in the EU. This is all available to them because of our membership within it. It's something previous generations have benefited from massively, and I think it'd be really, really unfair if that opportunity was removed from them before they'd had a chance to enjoy it. We know from the figures that young people are far more likely to be voting remain, and so I'd hope that they'd appeal to their parents and grandparents to say 'look, we're gonna have to live with this decision for longer, this is our future' and to vote remain. This is important. I would advise younger people to vote anyway. I'd like them to vote in, clearly, but for them to get involved is good enough.
Thanks, mate.
You can find out more about James' work for the Stronger In campaign right here.
Words by Josh Teal
Topics: EU referendum