As part of TheLADBible's Oi, Ref! series on the EU referendum, we've written about the pros and cons for the upcoming vote on June 23rd and asked an expert whether the politicians leading the debate are potentially psychopathic. We also sat down with James McGrory, a spokesperson for the campaign to stay in the EU, to hear his thoughts.
To make sure we let you know both sides of the debate, this week we sat down with Robert Oxley, the Chief Campaign Spokesperson for Vote Leave, about why he thinks we'd be better leaving the EU...
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Hey Rob, how did you first get involved in the campaign?
I've worked in politics for about 6 years, but I actually got into politics because I hated my train service and commute, then I worked in parliament. Then I ended up doing media as well as politics work and I ended up being a spokesman from that. But I've been looking at the EU side of things for about a year and a half now.
I wasn't a diehard anti-EU person from day one, not in the slightest, and it's been in the last couple of years that my Euroscepticism has developed - rather than being an instantaneous thing.
So if you had to describe why you think we should leave in a sentence, what would you say?
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Because it's a bigger risk to vote Remain than it is to vote Leave.
How do you you mean?
I look at what's happening and what is going to happen in the EU and how much we are going to be paying into the EU and I think it's bad for us.
We send £350million a week to Brussels, now we do get a bit of that back but we get told how we have to spend that money we get back. And for that bill we have the pleasure of handing over power over our borders, how we regulate our economy and trade deals, and how we conduct our democracy to the EU.
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I don't think that's a particularly good economic deal, but I also think in terms of our democracy and holding our politicians to account that's particularly healthy for us.
Is that one of the main reasons you want us to leave - to give voters more control of government?
We know the EU controls key decisions like our border, but even your car insurance is more expensive because there was a ruling in the European Court of Justice.
Beer is more expensive because of a ruling in that court too, and we're even probably going to have to put taxes up on cider because the European Commission has decided it has power over how we do our taxes.
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We weren't even able to get rid of [convicted terrorist] Abu Hamza's daughter, who tried to smuggle a SIM card into his prison, because the EU is in charge of making that decision.
So I think in terms of our democracy, those kinds of decisions should be taken either by people who we elect in this country, or by UK judges governed by UK law. Because one of the principles if we remain is that if you're in the EU then EU law is supreme to anything you can do here, and that's quite key principle.
Brussels makes a lot of bad decisions, but I also think British politicians make bad decisions which they blame on Brussels. The EU takes power away from us, but it also provides an escape route to politicians who want to do things and the EU lets them subvert the normal process.
Do you think that's a big problem - for instance lots of politicians will talk a good game about regulating immigration, knowing full well that EU member doesn't really allow that - so does it let them say one thing to get support, whilst effectively doing the other?
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Yeah exactly, the government was elected on a manifesto that they should cut immigration to under 100,000. That's what they promised us.
Yet in every single modelling and report they've envisioned immigration being double that figure. Whether you agree with the government on that figure or not I think politicians should be held to account for their decisions, but the government just shrugs their shoulders as if they don't have to be accountable to people.
You also end up with a situation where unskilled labourers from across Europe can walk in at any point without a job offer, yet if you want to bring over a trained doctor or IT technician from somewhere like Australia, South Africa or India it's really difficult because the government has had to impose a really restrictive visa system.
That's because they're trying to keep immigration down and they can't control numbers from within the EU.
It's not a magic ticket though, is it? Even if people vote to leave it doesn't necessarily mean controls on immigration, or free movement in Europe ending. Someone like Boris Johnson, for instance, is in favour of leaving but still in favour of immigration.
But Boris Johnson also says "if you don't like the policy I am standing on, you can kick me out", he talks about cycling round London and people calling him a 'Tory tosser', but at least they know who he is.
I think that's a very good point, because Jean-Claude Juncker is the guy in charge of the EU's European Commission and makes a lot of important decisions in this country, but you don't get to call him a tosser and you don't get to vote him out - that's not how the EU works.
I think that's important because I think policy should be accountable to the people it effects, and under the EU it will never be accountable in that way.
But Brexit doesn't necessarily mean less immigration?
Well it means you get to take back control of your borders and that government can set an immigration policy that it's happy with.
I'm not standing on a platform to say what immigration levels should be, but if a politician says they're going to bring down immigration to 100,000 - if you vote Leave then they'll have the power to do that. They do not have the power to do that under the current system.
What would you say to someone who is still sat on the fence on the issue? We have two opposing sides saying very different things and I think a lot people feel there's a lot of bullshit and fear mongering from both of you.
What I would say is this. This referendum isn't a choice between the EU status quo and something totally different, it's actually a choice between two very different options from what we have today.
Now I will make the argument that Remaining is the riskier option and Leave is safer, because the EU's only going to integrate further and become much more of a single power, where the British voice is marginalised and it takes more money and more power away from British people. And that is going to be different from what we have today.
Of course leaving the EU is also going to be different from what we have today and I'm making the case that it's safer to take back control, start spending the money we do on the EU on our own priorities like the NHS, and to make our own trade deals.
But it is a choice between those two options. Now the Remain campaign will paint a different picture, but if they're being honest they can't say it's a choice between what we have now and leap into the dark. That's intellectually not honest - there isn't a 'status quo' on the ballot.
One of the things about being a part of Europe is that it helps us to be a big player on the world stage. Are we really 'Great' Britain anymore, do we even have it in us to stand alone in the modern world?
First of all I'd just like to say I have nothing against Europe, I love travelling in Europe and things like French cuisine and the culture. But what I don't like is the EU which is a political institution which takes power and money away from people, is bureaucratic and effectively kills people with its regulations and policies in the world.
People have this idea that if you're pro-Brexit or Eurosceptic you're small-minded, you want to pull up the drawbridge and you hate the continent. That's not true at all, you can be pro-Europe and anti-EU - that's where I am in this debate.
But actually I have a lot of confidence in Britain, I don't think we're a 'small country', I think we're actually one of the world leaders. People want to come to the UK because of our economy, our dynamism, they enjoy our cities, people and culture - Britain has a lot going for it.
But what I do worry about is that a lot of that is undermined by our EU membership, and I think it's quite pessimistic when people say "Britain couldn't survive" if it left the EU and it has to cosy up to Brussels. I find that deeply depressing.
When you look at the polling about the EU usually it's older people that want to leave, then younger people want to stay - does that not worry you? Do you think you're just going against the way society is heading?
I think the older generation are more Eurosceptic because they have seen how the EU changes, and how what you vote for - last time we voted on it, it was about the 'common market' - is not what you get in 10 years time.
Brussels wants to integrate more, it wants to take more power and it has this end objective of creating the 'Federal States of Europe' [like the USA]. So I think that explains why older people, generally, want to leave.
But I think with younger people one of the reasons they back Remain is not because they think the argument is a strong one, but more that instant feeling that the Leave campaign is nostalgic and wants to hark back to the old days. And also because, frankly, it's associated with UKIP.
So they think the Remain campaign is more metropolitan and forward thinking. But I don't agree with that characterisation, it's not about 'the good old days', actually what we think is that the EU isn't fit for the future and the 21st century.
I think sometimes people backing Remain look at what they think a 'Leave person' might look like, and then said "I don't really like them", so they decide they naturally slot into Remain.
It's different when people examine the arguments and what we're actually saying, which isn't that we want to close ourselves off from the world, but that we just want to engage ourselves on a much more global level. And also that we think that the EU is bad at doing things, very costly and anti-democratic.
When people examine the arguments as it draws closer, then I think that it will boost our campaign a lot.
Do you think there's actually a chance we could leave the EU looking at the polls - which usually put Remain ahead?
I think from looking at the polls they're quite close. Also I think Leave voters are much more motivated, and I think the Remain vote is quite soft.
I think when people engage with the arguments beyond one or two headlines, which I'm sure TheLADBible's readers will be doing, then I think it's going to be a very close race.
And finally, it's coming up to summer and I think a big worry is that if we left the EU there might be tariffs on imports from within the EU, like beer, or it might affect how easy to go on holiday. Is that a danger?
There's a couple of points really, firstly the House of Commons Library actually says the EU makes goods more expensive - so it makes our food shopping bill more expensive.
But if we vote to leave there will not be tariff barriers. It's quite depressing that this is what the Remain campaign is trying to do, they're trying to come up with these myths to scare people into voting for them - but it's obvious when these myths are utter bullshit.
There are not going to be tariff if we Leave, there will be a free trade deal - even some of the most ardent pro-EU campaigners have been forced to admit that. So for that reason there won't be tariffs on beer, or other things that are imported such as cigarettes.
Actually it would also mean we'd have control over our taxes so if we wanted to cut taxes or not equalise VAT we'd have the power to do it. So beer wouldn't become more expensive and could actually become cheaper if we left the EU.
And for your typical lads holiday, continental resorts do very well from British holidaymakers, the last thing they are ever going to want to see is for a reduction on holidaymakers, it's not going to become more difficult.
So it'll be just as easy to hop on a plane and have a week of sun, booze and the other more enjoyable things in life.
Well that's good to know at least, thanks mate.
You can find out more about Rob's work for the Vote Leave campaign right here.
Words by James Dawson
Featured image credit: BBC
Featured Image Credit:Topics: EU
